Yvonne Nelson: You don't have to be confrontational. You really do get more with honey than vinegar. It's hard negotiating with GPs and everybody wants what they want in their documents, but I think that if you treat people respectfully, you'll get it back. And if you don't get it back, then you just call them out.

Nancy Lashine: Hello and thanks for tuning into Real Estate Capital. I'm your host, Nancy Lashine of Park Madison Partners. Park Madison is a capital solutions and advisory firm serving the global institutional real estate business. Capital is the lifeblood of the real estate industry, but the decisions on where and how it's allocated are driven by people and personalities. Who are they? What motivates them? What have been their biggest successes and lessons learned throughout their careers?

On this show, we introduce you to some of the real estate industry's most influential thought leaders and decision-makers, and we talk about what is important to them, how they make critical decisions, who has influenced them and a lot more. I'm excited to bring you this next episode featuring Yvonne Nelson, the former head of real estate for the $250 billion New York City Retirement Systems. Yvonne is on fire. She successfully grew the real estate portfolio from 1 billion when she joined in 2005 to 13 billion at her retirement. Not only did she figure out how to educate 56 trustees, mostly non-investment professionals, and grow this portfolio, but she did it with five discrete public pension funds and a tiny staff under the watchful eye of the public in a 24/7 city called New York.

Yvonne has an amazing ability to talk about hard subjects and have people listen. She's passionate. She's a straight shooter. She's fair, ambitious, and has inspired and mentored countless industry professionals. Yvonne has a secret sauce. She keeps her head on the swivel and kills him with kindness. I'm a big fan of Yvonne and I'm excited for you to have the opportunity to get to know her a bit through this podcast. We discuss Yvonne's career, the importance of having good mentors, New York City's particular focus on emerging managers and much more. Our conversation begins with Yvonne and I discussing her recent recognition as 2023 Woman of the Year by WX, the New York Women Executives in Real Estate.

Yvonne, thank you for joining us today. This is really, really fun.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, no, I'm so glad you asked me to be here.

Nancy Lashine: I'm sort of wondering how... Gosh, we've known each other for decades and I'm just sort of amused at the fact that we're here together because really a privilege. So thank you for joining us.

You were recently honored by WX, which is the Women Executives in Real Estate, as Woman of the Year. And you made an acceptance speech that kept this large ballroom at the Plaza Hotel, I think it's easily over 400 people, just riveted for about 40 minutes. And I was thinking about that. I would love to start our conversation today just talking about some of the things you said and allowing you to share some of your thoughts and ideas with our larger podcast audience.

Yvonne Nelson: Of course.

Nancy Lashine: So let's start with that, if that's okay. You talked about making our way when we're not supposed to or expected to. And I love that. I mean, that's such a powerful message. And I know many of us, I certainly can relate to that and I'm sure many people listening can relate to that. Do you want to share some thoughts about making your way when you were not supposed to or expected to?

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, so probably telling my age on this one, or even possibly if I could loop you in.

Nancy Lashine: You can loop me in, Yvonne. Today is my birthday.

Yvonne Nelson: Oh, right. That's right.

Nancy Lashine: Yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: Happy birthday.

Nancy Lashine: And rather than be incredibly embarrassed, I'm not going to announce it to the podcast audience, but I'm just hoping that people around here look at me as a role model.

Yvonne Nelson: Maybe John will loop in Stevie Wonder's Happy Birthday when he starts off or something, that of the soul.

Nancy Lashine: Maybe. I was actually hoping to loop in the music that was played when you were walking up to the stage at the WX thing and it was This Girl is on Fire.

Yvonne Nelson: Girl, let me tell you, it's great to have a committee because that's definitely kind of like... If someone asked me to name a mantra, that wouldn't be it. But the committee said, "No, that's it." Now I just deferred to the committee. And it turned out fabulous. It was a great, great opening and ending.

But to get back to your original question about making a way out of no way or just even being in a place and space where you're not expected to, it's just really kind of hearkened back to our early days in institutional real estate. That was definitely top of mind for me to be standing at the Plaza and looking out and is actually 600 folks that [inaudible 00:05:19].

Nancy Lashine: Wow.

Yvonne Nelson: And knowing that when we started in this business, 600 women, and this is just in New York, if you just kind of think about the women in real estate across this country today, it'll blow your mind. When I started in this business and walked into a room and found myself as the only female and the only person of color, typically it was like the double-dip, and looking around the room and maybe I might see you or a few other of our peers and colleagues from back in the day. So I guess I was just kind of visualizing that moment when I was putting pen to paper. And maybe there's a lot of people who say, because they come from a different generation, "I don't know what she's talking about." It wasn't so long ago that we were just spots in a room.

Nancy Lashine: It's true. It's true. There's something else that you said that just really struck a chord with me and it's been a motivator for me. I think you actually made me appreciate it more than I even realized. You said... Well, you made the comment about trying to get respect and the way you described it just cracked me up. You said, "Where else could a non-Ivy League Black woman demand the attentions of the titans of Wall Street?" And characteristically Yvonne, you undersell yourself. I mean, you have a degree from NYU and an MBA. You always do undersell yourself. But I get your point. And so you sort of use that to make a point about outsmarting the system and that generationally you kind of had to outsmart the system for you to get to where you are. Talk to us about that.

Yvonne Nelson: Absolutely. And I looked at previous WX Gala messages and realized that no one really kind of talked about the public sector. And when we think about how sizable institutional capital is in real estate from public pension funds, it's almost hard to believe that people just don't address it. And I thought it was important in my message to talk about public service, because certainly that was the way that I outsmarted the way. Because in terms of color, and people think about color as race or whatever, but in institutional real estate, the color is green, girl. And the managers want that green. And they will come to the offices, a public pension fund where the beneficiaries are largely multicultural, and sit there and try to get some money.

And so in terms of influence and respect, it demands that position and influence demands respect. You walk through that door, you'll have to do whatever it takes to get the investment staff to recommend your investment and then act as an advocate in front of all of their trustees. And in New York City at the time, there were about 56 trustees. And so they have to find a way. They have to navigate a way to get to that capital. And so I was just trying to think of a cheeky way of rolling that all up into one sentence.

Nancy Lashine: Well, you did it.

Yvonne Nelson: [inaudible 00:08:55].

Nancy Lashine: And now. So when we first met you were at the New York State Common Retirement Fund, which I think was maybe a little more institutionally run, was certainly earlier into the real estate business. But in 2005, you went to effectively a startup at the New York City Retirement Office. So you joined the comptroller's office. New York City was a bit of an anomaly where each of the different pension funds had their own board. So if you wanted money from New York City, you had to go before five boards, as I recall at the time. And that meant that you had to manage and educate five sets of board members. I can't even fathom what that was about. So when you started, it was 2005, maybe there was a billion dollars of real estate assets when you left.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, it was about a billion dollars.

Nancy Lashine: And you created a diversified global portfolio that was some 17 billion when you retired.

Yvonne Nelson: It was about 13 billion when I retired. It's about 17 billion now. And actually I didn't do it all myself, although it was hard to imagine that two people did it. But I was recruited to New York City by Joyce Miller, who also spent time at New York State Common. But yes, it was a relatively new program. And educating 56 trustees about real estate along with the real estate consultants, there certainly was a tremendous, tremendous lift.

And I would also add that what made it particularly challenging was that they never behaved in lockstep with each other. If you can imagine five large pension funds, five distinct investment committees that each had a different investment profile. And so even though the investment staff was centralized, and even though we were coming with one recommendation and attending five meetings like we were on a roadshow.

Nancy Lashine: This is so classic, Yvonne. This is two women really with five different jobs. Right?

Yvonne Nelson: Right.

Nancy Lashine: Normally you would've had an investment management team for each of the boards. Classic.

Yvonne Nelson: It was, yeah, that's the government. So that's the beauties, lean and mean. So that's the way it is there.

Nancy Lashine: Obviously, an incredibly hard job educating those trustees. Tell us about some of the things that you did that really were effective to implement the program.

Yvonne Nelson: There's a couple of things. Some of the things dealt with policy because the trustees felt very strongly about certain issues. And New York City is a very progressive city. Some of the trustees were elected officials. And so that leaked into the boardroom as well. So there was always this overarching request to be involved in investment programs that increased affordable housing in the city. New York City as an institutional investor was very much a supporter of small-cap managers, particularly those that are women-owned or minority-owned.

So across the asset classes, they have been very successful in placing capital in PE, in public equity, fixed income. And real estate's been a struggle. Real estate has definitely been a struggle. I think that if you, notwithstanding the fact that you are not an investment manager per se, so just carving your firm out, if you would try to identify today investment managers of color, there's probably a handful, if any. And then the same thing of women-owned firms.

So to be able to deliver a product like that to the trustees knowing that they're seeing that across the asset classes, and here you are trying to design a program for that in real estate and there's literally hardly any professionals, much less firms that come before them. And the trustees were never shy about asking people about their management teams and why there were not as many women or people of color that they brought to the board meeting because there probably weren't any.

So it's always pretty important for the trustees to see that diversity because that was what their beneficiaries were comprised of, and so it meant a lot to them to see diversity, to put forth programs where capital was being placed with smaller managers. They also believed as fiduciaries that those smaller managers, once they are successful, that they would get preferred treatment. And they were right. So it wasn't as if it was altruistic 100%. They were looking to get in on the ground floor of some talented investment teams.

So probably one of the last programs that came about before my retirement was a co-investment program because the trustees recognize that it was a lower-fee low, that they possibly have access to what they thought were better deals. They read the paper just like anyone else. They read The Wall Street Journal and see some spectacular deal and look and see New York teachers teamed up with Blackstone to do that, and they would come back and say, "How come we didn't know about that?" There really was not an infrastructure to be able to execute on that expeditiously to be a part of that investment group.

Nancy Lashine: Right. You meant New York State teachers? Yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, New York state teachers. Yeah. Thank you.

Nancy Lashine: So when you set up the co-investment program, did the board retain discretion? Did you give a manager discretion? Did you set the fees in advance? How did you do it?

Yvonne Nelson: We identified an investment partner. So yes. We did hire a manager. It was a selection process in that we identified some teams that were active in the space and started to negotiate with them for a separate account in co-investments, and that was probably one of the last specialized programs that were approved prior to my retirement.

Nancy Lashine: What did you learn over the period of time about setting up a global real estate portfolio? Did it perform the way you hoped it would? And how would you think about it differently, if at all, today?

Yvonne Nelson: So I would say that we entered that space quite gingerly whereby our early investments, XUS were in some of the global mega managers that everyone is familiar with. As we got familiar with the markets, then we kind of drilled down to identify who were the specialists, if there were any managers that had specialty funds, and taking a look at that track record. And of course, always talking to our peers. So of course we got feedback and recommendations from our consultants, but what was also important to us was the experience that our peers were having with these managers. So we had no problem with following people into successful franchises, and that's basically what we did.

Nancy Lashine: And was the global real estate really for diversification or were you looking for out-sized return from there?

Yvonne Nelson: It was primarily for diversification. It primarily was for diversification. And in terms of we always wanted to be mindful of which regions were say on the come up in terms of performance, in terms of trends, in terms of, for example, the suburbanization trends. Where's that playing out? Is it Asia? Where's it going next? Should we do this? What about rental housing? Where's that trend? Where is it about to manifest? He's doing it well. So we would be very much following the secular trends.

Nancy Lashine: So in the 20ish, almost 20 years since you started that program, I mean, the industry has changed a lot. I know from Park Madison standpoint, there just used to be a lot more opportunity for an emerging manager to start a first-time fund, for example. And the industry is really kind of bar-belled with the very big managers getting really, really big, many of whom are publicly traded, and then the smaller managers having to find narrower and narrower niches or reasons for groups to invest with them. And open-end funds have proliferated until this recent downturn, and now it looks like there's a question, will they keep going? Co-investments have become more important. So all those trends and many others that you've seen. If you think about the very big picture, how has the portfolio for a group like New York City's pension funds evolved and changed, not just in terms of size, but in terms of how a big real estate institution would think about a diversified global portfolio today versus 15, 20 years ago?

Yvonne Nelson: So again, because of the body of trustees, number of trustees that we were dealing with, it was always kind of evolutionary, meaning we would invest in global funds with managers that they were familiar with that we were investing with domestically. And the team on its own would be one jump ahead, looking at specialists and then looking at mid-size firms.

So I guess the only thing that I would say that's different than your barbell analogy is the fact that once we became comfortable with specialists and their track record and what they were able to deliver to their investors, we felt very comfortable in bringing mid-size European funds or say an Asian specialist that was a mid-size fund, kind of like a billion, billion and a half or so. We would feel comfortable in bringing that to the trustees. Because first, they had the exposure vis-a-vis the mega global managers, and so they were able to get that into their bloodstream. You know what I'm saying? And then...

Nancy Lashine: Yeah, totally.

Yvonne Nelson: Right. And then they were more open to talk, "Okay, well, here's a specialist." And of course the first thing they're going to say is, "What kind of returns did they get?" Right? Returns, behavior. Returns, behavior.

Nancy Lashine: What does behavior mean?

Yvonne Nelson: Reputational risk. So the page-six rule.

Nancy Lashine: You don't want to appear on page six.

Yvonne Nelson: You don't want to appear on page six.

Nancy Lashine: Yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: That's right.

Nancy Lashine: We are talking about the New York Post just for those of you who might be in another part of the world. That is really... I don't think of us as being colloquial, but I suppose there's some of that.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, there is. There is. And probably more people know about it than we think.

Nancy Lashine: Probably, probably. You talked about a solutions-oriented mindset. And you've worked with so many people over your career. What are some of the characteristics that make a great trustee or a great CIO?

Yvonne Nelson: That's a good question. You have to be open-minded, and I would say that... And still probably a handful of trustees, and some of them I can think about right now, I visualize them in my head, and I miss them so much. The best trustee is a prepared trustee. There was a subset of trustees that we used to have pre-meeting calls because they knew a certain deal was going to be presented or maybe it was a business plan for the year, they had questions. And it was extra work, but I loved it. I loved it.

I loved the trustees to be engaged because that also meant that when we were going to roll out a new initiative, like a co-investment program or emerging manager program or a separate account for affordable housing, those trustees got us. They knew what we were trying to accomplish and they would be early supporters. And that was because they followed the evolution of the program. They knew the direction that we were going in. We were consistent in that whatever our tactical plan was for 12 months, that if they looked at their meeting agendas, they were seeing the same things. And that's how you engender trust as well.

So you're saying along with the consultant, of course, "These are the trends. These are the sectors that we think we need to be in. This is where the portfolio is underrepresented. This is our top list of prospects. And no promises because we still have to do our due diligence, but if the diligence bears out, you're going to see recommendations in these areas." And the trustees that spent the most time getting to learn about the markets, about real estate, they asked interesting questions, they were very open-minded, and as I mentioned before, they were early supporter if we were going to do something a little different.

Nancy Lashine: That's great. I'm going to switch gears a little bit. You had amazing comments about diversity and inclusion, and as oftentimes I've been the only woman in a room, I get sort of tagged with being the D&I person. And I have to say that I learned a lot just from listening to your comments the other day. For people who don't necessarily intuitively appreciate the value of having a diverse decision-making body, can you come up with an example of when there was a critical decision that had to be made and you saw the groupthink going on and by dint of having a more diverse group of voices in the room that made themselves heard, the decision was moved and was able to become a better decision process?

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah. So I would probably take people back to GFC because there were a lot of things blowing up at that time. And the role of the limited partner advisory committee definitely rose in stature. They were dealing with issues that were highly complex and fraught with a lot of governance issues. And we were constantly meeting, conference calls, whatever, do we remove the manager, yes or no? Are we going to allow them to change their strategy significantly? Are they capable of doing that? These are heavy, heavy issues to deal with.

And about the same time there were requests from investors when they attended a semiannual or an annual meeting, there was this request that started to bubble up about, "Okay, fine, thanks. You did a nice job. Now we'd like to meet amongst ourselves."

Nancy Lashine: Okay.

Yvonne Nelson: And the LP starting to have really heart-to-heart, started to talk about issues and how they were going to resolve them. And it gave people the comfort to really express their views even if they were different. So I'm answering your question in a different kind of way where I started to see people feeling comfortable expressing their views and sharing experiences. So the LPs were sharing their experiences and the empathy that came from that would result in a collective view about the situation and bring about a much better resolution.

So it's a general type of example, but I would argue that even today that's how most investors communicate with their managers. They'll have a general meeting, whatever, but some of them will ask for time to just talk alone and bring issues to the manager. And the manager will know that if the group got together and decided to put forth these issues, that these are definitely things that they should address. And they were always delivered with an expectation that the manager was going to address it.

Nancy Lashine: Got it. I'm going to switch gears again. You were chairman of PREA, I believe when PREA started the PREA Foundation.

Yvonne Nelson: Yes.

Nancy Lashine: So what is the PREA Foundation and why was that important to you, something that you wanted to get going?

Yvonne Nelson: So I don't think I was chair at PREA at the time. I think I was chair maybe a year or two earlier, but still on the PREA Board.

Nancy Lashine: Planting the seeds, right?

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah. How did you know I was going to go there? Because that's exactly right. Know your audience. Everyone says that, right? But you have to be able to sense when you have the right people in the room to really get something going. And I would say that there had been an acknowledgment about the lack of representation of both women and people of color in institutional real estate broadly, and then also within PREA. How do we kind of mix things up? We were just talking about groupthink. How do we bring different people together, different views? How do we do that? Large firms, small firms, why are there a dozen people from one firm here? How do we kind of mix up a little bit?

And I think that PREA absolutely did the right thing in 2017 in deciding to earmark some of its funds. PREA is a nonprofit organization, and so we are supposed to be deploying money. And so we have these conversations around the table at the PREA meetings and, "Boy, we ought to do this, and how can we do this?" And so at this one particular meeting, someone just put it on the table, "Hey, let's do a foundation." "Okay. Well, what's the mission of the foundation going to be?" And without question, people said, "Diversity and inclusion. We should be applying resources to this. If our membership can't do it, and maybe it's expensive, the resources that have to be brought to bear, we can have shared resources. We could offer this to the membership. Let's talk about the elephant that's in the room."

Nancy Lashine: Yeah. But it took incredible leadership. And it's not easy to call people up and ask them for a lot of money. And there were people on the board who just picked up the phone and unabashedly got it done.

Yvonne Nelson: Oh, they absolutely did. And it absolutely started in the boardroom because the next person said, "Well, we can't start a foundation and ask people to donate if there's people around this table who are capable of doing it and don't show the leadership to step up and be an early supporter." Oh boy, that was one of the best meetings ever. Yeah. Because that's exactly what happened. And then a subcommittee was formed. Because you got to have passionate people. That's not the time to try to convert people. You're either there or you're not. Right?

Nancy Lashine: Yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: So you take a subset of people that believe, and of course, I was at LP at the time, so we had to excuse ourselves. And the GP said, "We don't have a problem sitting in front of another GP and call them out because they one of our own, and we don't have a problem with that." And it was the shot in the arm that we needed because that first year we had 15 million in pledges. It was unbelievable.

Nancy Lashine: That is amazing, yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: For an industry, this is the same industry, this is the same industry with the spots in the room that we were talking about when you and I were just coming up.

Nancy Lashine: One of the things that really struck me, I was at a PREA, they had the CEO event that's the day before the spring conference. So I've had the privilege as a past board member and founder of this business to attend. And I looked around the room and it was a sea of guys and white guys for the most part. And I then walked from there into the PREA Women's Tea, which I think you were one of the very first people when we had the PREA Women's Group, there were six of us at lunch or something in New York City, but there was a completely packed ballroom filled with women, mostly younger women. And I just kind of looked around the room and I thought, "Gosh, how many of these women want to be in that CEO room and feel like they can be and that they have the right to be, and that they're just focused that way," versus just the contrast between our own expectations just hit me at that point. So I love it when you talk about passion. And I mean, you just have it. It's fabulous.

Yvonne Nelson: Well, thank you so much.

Nancy Lashine: I have to say that you are also one of the rarest of rare generationally. You're a woman who's had a very successful career and you've also been a successful mom and you've raised three fantastic humans, Michelle and Monica and Steven.

Yvonne Nelson: Right, right.

Nancy Lashine: And so for people who are listening who may want to, whether female or male, may want to find a better balance between their work life and their family life and be successful, very successful at both as you have been, what thoughts or advice might you want to share?

Yvonne Nelson: Oh, wow. And that was always top of mind for me. Probably one of the reasons why I stayed in the public sector so long was because there was certain home life that I saw myself. Was married at the time and he was very much into his career and we had our goals as a couple. But it was clear to me that my role was to be there for the kids, to pick them up, to take them to their clubs, to push them academically, to help them grow in terms of what their passions, help them discover their passions. And so that's probably the contributing factor as to why I stayed in the public service. And then also I have my selfish reason because you know I like power. I'm powerful when I see where I am.

Nancy Lashine: We all like power. One of the many things I love about you, Yvonne, is you're just unabashed in saying it.

Yvonne Nelson: Just tell the truth. So that being said, my kids know that I am very ambitious. Their dad was very ambitious. We worked very, very hard. And before official work-from-home policies, I would decide that, okay, this is enough time for me at the office. I need to be home. And I would just bring my work home. I would bring my work home. They would see me working, or maybe I'd wait until they went to bed. But it was very, very important. I wanted a full life. And for me, being a mom, and there's different strokes for different folks, but for me I definitely wanted to include motherhood in terms of what my life was going to be about. And it worked for me. I worked hard. They saw me work hard. They saw that I wish them to be the best.

I also taught them that they should be able to advocate for themselves. And whether you're an at-home mom or whether you're a working mom, I would always say have your kids learn how to advocate for themselves at school. Because there's what, very few... What, the guidance counselors are what, one or two, whatever? And your kids want certain classes and people make decisions for them. And if they don't necessarily agree with their teacher, there's a way, there's a way to address things to an adult as a younger adult. And I think that it's important to show your kids that advocate for themselves with their own friends so that they don't turn out to be followers. It is just a trait that crosses so many lines and it helps them to develop as a person. They advocate for themselves. They don't do crazy things with their friends. They don't do crazy things in the classroom. They're honest about, "No, I don't think I want to take piano lessons, but I'd rather do this."

Nancy Lashine: That is such great advice. When you think about your own mentors or people who've been mentors to you, are there anybody you want to mention here?

Yvonne Nelson: Well, I'll tell you an interesting story. There was a lady sitting at my table, her name was Edie Fontanez, and she was a very influential supervisor. I worked at Manhattan Plaza before I got my MBA. And Manhattan Plaza had a level of subsidy for their residents, and it was kind of complicated rules and it's highly administrative and things like that. And I came to them maybe about a year or two after graduating from college, and Edie taught me everything I knew about the Section 8 housing program.

And the people at the office would pull her aside and say, "Why are you teaching her that? She could take your job." And this is a lesson I learned about how to be a good manager. She told them that the better I knew my job, it was a reflection on her. The more comfortable our upper management should be to promote her knowing that there were other people that could do her job. And I've never met anybody like that. I was in my late twenties. And she taught me a lot about being a manager, about how important it is giving your team members the ability to grow and shine. That's it not always about you. When they shine, you shine.

Nancy Lashine: Wow. Well, there are not that many women generationally who felt that way. There was room at the top for one, and it was kind of pulling up the ladder behind you.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah, that's right. "I got here. You find your own way. Go get your own." Oh, I've had female supervisors. I have to say, I'm embarrassed to say, but true. But fortunately, I met this woman early in my life, and she's 75 now or something. I found her on LinkedIn.

Nancy Lashine: Wow, that's great.

Yvonne Nelson: I found her on LinkedIn and invited her to the gala. So that's a nice story.

Nancy Lashine: Oh, that's a fabulous story.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah. But some of my mentors, and I wouldn't be surprised if you said the same thing, in those days, my mentors were men.

Nancy Lashine: Well, yeah, because there weren't too many women around.

Yvonne Nelson: Yeah.

Nancy Lashine: But I certainly looked for female role models early in my career. It was important to see that there were other women, at least in the industry who had carved out a spot for themselves.

Yvonne Nelson: Yes, I agree. And some of them, a few of them were very open. I would say Alice Connell for one. And there's probably others that always had an open door. And I don't know, for me, they were all outside of my organization. And that's why in my message I suggested to the young women that were in the audience to mentor and be mentored, not only in your company, go outside your company, go outside, go in your industry, or go outside your industry. It's unfortunate, but I mean, you find the women where you can find them. And sometimes they're not in your organization, so seek them out.

Nancy Lashine: Well, absolutely. And it's again, good diversity of experiences too.

Yvonne Nelson: Yes.

Nancy Lashine: Because it allows you to maybe shift. Unlike you, maybe having a very long career at one or two or three places is not what ends up happening. I've had maybe three jobs in my entire career mostly because I ended up starting a business. But that's unusual. I think it's the exception.

Yvonne Nelson: Can I mention...

Nancy Lashine: Yeah.

Yvonne Nelson: ... just one more thing?

Nancy Lashine: Sure.

Yvonne Nelson: And that is, we were talking about respect earlier and earning respect, and sometimes that's really kind of hard to do in your own organization. But one of the things that I learned is that, and that's why I suggest you go outside of your organization, there weren't many people in my office that were making concerted effort to become familiar and meet and become involved with trade groups. And it was important for me.

I found that my involvement with PREA exposed me to a host of LPs in a different environment. Of course, I would see them at a manager meeting. But at PREA it was kind of a different setting. And you get to know people, your peers. And if you actually become involved in an industry organization and you are recognized for your work and perhaps maybe you end up in the leadership of that organization, it'll come back around to where you work. Because trustees would tell me, "Oh, I met a trustee from so-and-so pension fund, and they asked me about you." And they were like, "How did that happen?" I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm out there. I'm out there." Participate on panels, moderate panels, get out there. So if you don't have the internal support within your organization, if you think that it's lacking, use your initiative. Make it happen anyway.

Nancy Lashine: Yvonne, I think about how one of the ways the world has changed a lot just in the last handful of years is that we all tend to live a little bit more in our bubble. Because in politics, among friends, even among family, if you can't find a way, if you don't agree, that let's agree to disagree friendly discourse has become less and less common, certainly in our political life, and I think even in our personal lives. And you have the amazing ability to just talk about hard subjects and have people listen. I think you use the expression to keep your head on a swivel. And then of course the defining characteristic for you is kill them with kindness.

So share anything you'd want to share with us about how that has influenced your life. And I'm sure it's not easy. I'm sure it's really hard. I'm sure you swallow hard a lot of times when you're in a situation, but it's such a wise and incredibly... It's very characteristic of you and it makes you a little bit larger than life in that respect and why I think you captivated a room of 600 people. Talk to us a little bit more about that.

Yvonne Nelson: Well, I think that that's personal because you have to be your authentic self. I think that I evolved because I realized that I was not the rah-rah girl, and I was not the A-type personality. So how do I get attention just being me? And I found that you can use your barbell example, you can go to the other end and you can be well-prepared, have a position ready to express when asked. And you don't have to be confrontational. You really do get more with honey than vinegar. I mean, come on. I would say try it. You'd be surprised.

I mean, it's hard negotiating with GPs and everybody wants what they want in their documents. I have a whole list of stuff that my trustees want me to get, responsible contractor, all this stuff. I can't even get to the economics after getting through all of the policy. But I think that if you treat people respectfully, you'll get it back. And if you don't get it back, then you just call them out. Just call them out on it.

Nancy Lashine: I love that. Yvonne, so in your post-retirement, the time that you have, tell us about what you enjoy, how are you spending it, and any goals or objectives that you set for yourself in this next chapter?

Yvonne Nelson: Okay, so next chapter is the appropriate term because it's not your grandma's retirement. I have some older relatives, and when they heard that I was going to retire, they had this, I could see their head turning, their eyes rolling, this long honey-do list of all the stuff they were going to have me do for them. And then I got a couple of board positions, and my time is my own. And I enjoy it so much because it keeps me in the business. It keeps my mind alert. But I'm not punching a clock. So I like that part of my life and I am blessed. We are in a different time, Nancy. I mean, people live longer. So I don't know about you, but I'm like one of those sandwich people where I have seniors above me and I have my older kids underneath me, and I'm managing all of that. And I don't think there's any generation that's had to do that. That's a lot of balls to juggle.

Nancy Lashine: Not at this age. Right?

Yvonne Nelson: Right. Not at this age. And so the other part of my life is kind of looking behind these seniors that I have and making sure that they have a wonderful life for as long as I have them.

Nancy Lashine: That sounds great. Yvonne, you are such a role model, and you have the incredible ability to make your voice heard in a room that's not always been interested in hearing what you had to say and doing it in a way that everybody ends up respecting you enormously and wanting to hear more. So thank you so much for joining us today and look forward to seeing everything that's to come from you. We really appreciate your words of wisdom.

Yvonne Nelson: Well, thank you so much, Nancy. And there's still a couple of hours left to enjoy that birthday. What are you going to do?

Nancy Lashine: It's all good. I'm having a good day.

Yvonne Nelson: Oh, great. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy Lashine: I hope you enjoyed this episode of Real Estate Capital. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. We put a lot of thought and effort into this show and making sure we bring you insights from real estate leaders that you don't normally find in the mainstream media. So if you're enjoying this show, please remember to follow it on your favorite podcasting app so you never miss an episode. We'd also love for you to share it with others or give us a review on Apple Podcasts so others can find us. Thanks again for tuning in. For more information about our firm, please visit our website at parkmadisonpartners.com.