Jen Stevens:

I think the perspective change that I've noticed the most is the shift from a mentality that there's a double bottom line associated with ESG investments and that therefore it cannot make financial sense to pursue. That was the original thesis or the original feedback that we always received as consultants.

I think that has shifted now, if you don't understand risks related to ESG, are you then serving your clients to the best of your extent? The approach of the investor has shifted from, we can't make money off of this to, if we don't consider the risks here, are we doing ourselves a disservice?

Nancy Lashine:

Hello, and thanks for tuning into Real Estate Capital. I'm your host, Nancy Lashine of Park Madison Partners. Park Madison is a capital solutions and advisory firm serving the global institutional real estate business. We sit at the intersection of real estate managers and their capital partners. In bringing these two groups together we speak to a broad range of thought leaders about recent trends in real estate investing, capital markets, operations, and technology. And on this show we try to bring some of those insights and conversations directly to you.

Our guest on this episode is Jennifer Stevens, co-founder and managing partner of Alliance Global Advisors. We recorded this episode in January 2021 shortly after Jen had departed Townsend after 16 years to form Alliance with her business partner, Heather Border. Alliance focuses on developing strategic growth solutions for real asset investment managers, helping them to improve operations, develop new investment products, and accelerate business development.

Alliance also performs ESG and DEI consultation, and Jen is a leading voice on ESG with the institutional real estate industry. In 2016, she was presented with the inaugural GRESB Investor Leadership Award due to her pioneering efforts on ESG and in 2019 she was included on Chief Investment Officer's annual list of the world's most influential investment consultants.

Themes we explore in our conversation include Jen's career path, her insight into ESG and DEI initiatives, and how real estate investment managers can set themselves up for success with investors. Our conversation begins with Jen discussing her background and what led to her career in real estate. Jen, welcome to the show.

Jen Stevens:

Thank you, Nancy. It's great to be here. I listen to the show. I'm a dedicated subscriber to this podcast and I feel honored to be speaking with you today. It's almost a bucket list item for me, so thank you for having me.

Nancy Lashine:

Well, we're delighted to have you. I'm really excited about all the topics that we want to cover. So let's start at the beginning. Where are you from? Where'd you grow up?

Jen Stevens:

So I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I spent most of my childhood however in Northeast Ohio. I went to college at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, and I studied for my MBA later at Case Western Reserve in Cleveland while I was working with Townsend. I spent 12 years after that in California and recently moved back to Ohio where I am today.

Nancy Lashine:

Oh my gosh, I've never told you this story but so I started out, I grew up in New York, but I went to Oberlin College and I dropped out. I was 17 and I moved to California and I grew up in New York City, so I didn't have a driver's license, so I got one when I moved to California. When I then drove my car and moved back to Ohio to go to Case Western University, we are both alums, I went into the Bureau of Motor Vehicles and I gave her my California license and I said, "I'm moving to Ohio. I need to change my license." And this woman looks at me, and I'm like 18 years old or something, and she goes, "Girl, what the heck are you doing that for?" And I just started to cry because it was beautiful, sunny California and it was a gray day in Ohio and I was like, "I don't know." So sorry-

Jen Stevens:

That's great-

Nancy Lashine:

That was a digression.

Jen Stevens:

No, I love it-

Nancy Lashine:

But-

Jen Stevens:

And I think we have something in common there with Case Western Reserve, although I did not graduate from Case Western Reserve in their MBA program. I spent a year there and then after that is when I moved to California. So I didn't actually finish the program.

Nancy Lashine:

They're the worst for it, I'm sure. You're certainly racking up a few awards in the professional world. That's terrific.

So how did you end up in real estate? Was it a passion from the time you were young or an accident or fate?

Jen Stevens:

It was a little bit of both for me. While I was growing up, my dad built custom log homes in the Midwest and I grew up in a log home that he built with his own hands, and my aunt and uncle lived next door. We shared a driveway and they also had a log home that he built.

And so my brother in fact just built a log home in southern Ohio, and I'm building my first home in Columbus, Ohio. So I guess you could say that real estate does run in my blood, but it's not quite the same type of real estate that you and I have spent our lives evaluating in the recent years.

At OU, when I was at Ohio University, I studied finance and business law. I also spent quite a bit of time in the PoliSci department and I love history. And my original intent when I graduated from Ohio University was to go on to law school, but as state would have it, one of my professors at Ohio University, he knew the Townsend team. He introduced me and recommended me for an interview. And then after that I worked with a lot of recovering lawyers throughout my career and they convinced me not to pursue law. So I ended up at Townsend where I spent a lot of the early days of my career.

Nancy Lashine:

Wow. And then, so tell us a little bit about the different roles you played at Townsend briefly, and we'll dig in there a little bit more. So give us a big picture overview.

Jen Stevens:

So I started in 2004 at Townsend as an investment analyst in their Cleveland office, the headquarters office at the time. And I was hired alongside a team of analysts and they quickly became my very close friends, especially during my time at Townsend. We traveled together, we vacationed together, and some are still at Townsend and others moved on. And I'm working with two today in our new venture with Alliance Global Advisors. So it's been a fun journey.

While I was in Cleveland with Townsend, I worked across both Townsend's discretionary and advisory client base. I loved my time there. I actually very much loved my job. It was very fulfilling to work with not only the clients that I was able to work with, but also I constantly felt challenged by the other minds in the room, whether it was the investment managers pitching a strategy to us or the investors and hearing their perspective or my colleagues and their great deal of experience. So I spent all of my 20s at Townsend and a substantial part of my 30s. So I guess you could say I grew up there.

I did learn almost everything I know about this industry during my time at Townsend. The culture there, it's hard for me to explain. For me it was the right mix of experience and dedication and competitive culture and really working with genuine people that I had a lot in common with. And for a time at Townsend, it felt very entrepreneurial. It was a growing firm, opened and expanded global offices.

And when I moved to San Francisco in 2008, that's when I became a partner of the firm and I joined Townsend's Investment Committee and I really continued to lead the ESG initiative. So I'm biased, but I really do believe that Townsend is the best at what they do on the global stage, and that's to create these unique investment solutions for their clients. So definitely had a great time working there. It was the first job I ever quit. It was a very difficult decision for me, but I felt it was time to move on to new challenges.

Nancy Lashine:

Well, we'll talk about the challenges in a few minutes, but tell us what is it like to be an advisory consultant at Townsend? What was your job? Who did you work with? How important was the client service aspect or performance measurement aspect versus continually staying ahead of the curve in real estate and recommending new managers or what other things were taking up your time and intellectual energy?

Jen Stevens:

The advisory consultant role, given the constant interaction with the advisory clients of the firm, and these were clients who had investment professionals on staff, and together you were making collective investment decisions and ultimately making a recommendation or a strategy or an investment in the portfolio. And so I think the first thing I would say is that the culture at Townsend was very client-focused. Everything we did was to drive value for the clients and create opportunity for the clients while being very mindful of the risks that were being incurred.

So I think that that client service aspect can be taxing because it's not as if you're able to make 100% of the investment decisions, is a collective decision. Not only at Townsend do you have an investment committee that you have to report to, but then you have to report out to your clients. And ultimately you are hired to serve the board of retirement in most cases across this client base. So you're required to report out to the board.

During good times when real estate values are increasing and performance is strong, it can be quite enjoyable to present those performance figures back to the client. In times of challenge and disruption in the marketplace, it can be very difficult. Oftentimes if something goes wrong, you're the first to blame, as you should be. If something goes right, you're the last to receive credit for a good decision that was made in the investment portfolio. But I did find it to be really challenging working with the advisory clients, but ultimately a super healthy perspective that I was able to form while I was there in that role.

Nancy Lashine:

Yeah, the real estate investment business has changed so much over the last couple of decades. Obviously the business is truly global now. There's so many more managers, there are many large public managers. The number of strategies has just mushroomed. The idea of quadrant investing is old news.

So how did your role as a consultant or how did Townsend's role as a consultant evolve over the years that you were there?

Jen Stevens:

Well, as the industry evolved and the number of investment opportunities increased globally, I think it really evolved because you were playing on a global scale. And at Townsend there was a very strong emphasis on becoming a specialist in one sector. So I always felt I could rely on my colleagues for answers that I didn't know, right? It was such a good network and such a specialist mentality that you gained an expertise in one region of the world or one property type, and you really worked hard to understand everything about that particular strategy and joined together as a team to make recommendations for the client.

So I think first of all, it's just the collection of opportunities really expanded. And to be able to cover the globe, you really have to have that type of model in place. It's impossible for somebody that is managing six clients with 50 investment positions in each portfolio to know every single thing about every single investment. And we really tried hard but what was so great about the model was that you could leverage other expertise across the firm in order to make informed investment decisions. So it's become more complex. The types of solutions that are sought after today versus what was sought after in the 1990s when it was purely core open-end commingled funds or separate accounts to choose from, I mean, the world has changed and the number of opportunities is so vast, and investor preferences have also changed from simply fund models to more direct investment styles and co-investment in special situations.

And so, one of the major changes that I've seen within the industry is really a focus on acquisition, asset management, and real true real estate industry experience inside the consulting firms. And I think that benefited everybody, the investors and the consultants themselves. So I think that that has changed over the years as well.

Nancy Lashine:

Oh, absolutely. As you say that, that makes a ton of sense. What were your areas of expertise at Townsend?

Jen Stevens:

So I began in the 2004 to 2007 range covering hospitality investments and affordable housing investments at the firm. So I was responsible for covering all of the hospitality managers and opining on investment decisions when they were being made in that space.

And then it evolved to really the ESG area of expertise and portfolio management on behalf of my clients. So Townsend shifted from a model where if you were serving advisory clients as a portfolio manager, you were also working on due diligence at the time to a model that really segregated the research and due diligence efforts of the firm to gain more consistency across the platform and leverage those areas of expertise.

So I moved from having these specialties to really becoming an advisory specialist and serving my clients as a portfolio manager.

Nancy Lashine:

Got it. Well, and I'm thinking hospitality and affordable housing, is that what you said?

Jen Stevens:

Affordable housing-

Nancy Lashine:

Was affordable-

Jen Stevens:

Workforce and affordable.

Nancy Lashine:

Right. It's a little bit like Mark Twain, right? The best of times and the worst of times, the most attractive and probably some of the most challenged areas right now.

So that's a whole other topic of conversation, but let's talk about ESG because you are one of the preeminent consulting experts in that space and it's become an area of great interest for the investment community. Obviously you developed Townsend's original ESG DDQ and have I'm sure seen that whole... the policies evolve dramatically.

Why don't you give us a snapshot of where you see ESG today, how has it evolved just in the last year or so? I know you spend time, you give masterclasses about this and it's an area you certainly are an expert in.

Jen Stevens:

Ah, thank you. It's almost expertise by default. I started covering ESG for Townsend in 2007. The investment committee at the time was doing research on whether sustainable initiatives at the asset level or at the fund level could result in return for investors or in trying to decide whether or not it was a trend or something that was here to stay. The result of that conversation was somewhat inconclusive because there was no data really supporting a correlation between performance and building to a level of sustainability or following ESG initiatives.

And so at that time, our emphasis at Townsend became focusing on better data collection and improving transparency in the industry so we could ultimately draw that correlation if one existed. And so we started with some research initiatives. We joined the UN PRI, we became an advisory board member to the Global Real Estate Sustainability Benchmark or GRESB, and we continued following the sector as our clients began demanding it, and then also as the research and the data in ESG improved over time.

What I think is different today than back then, so the name of the paper I wrote for Townsend's Investment Committee was called Green is the new black, which in itself that title alludes to the fact that it could be a trend. It was before Orange is the New Black came out. So I feel I was ahead of the curve there. And then there was just a greater degree of emphasis placed on understanding the data, collecting the data, who was actually being mindful of requests and following the space? And where it stands today, it's come full circle. So GRESB has thousands of members that are reporting data to its system in a consistent and uniform fashion.

There are obviously challenges with that data as there are with all types of data, but I think the perspective change that I've noticed the most is the shift from a mentality that there's a double bottom line associated with ESG investments and that therefore it cannot make financial sense to pursue. That was the original thesis or the original feedback that we always received as consultants. I think that has shifted now. That is not the first approach necessarily.

The first approach is actually a mindfulness about risk and whether or not the risks that you're taking in your portfolio is properly mitigated. And if you don't understand risks related to ESG, are you then serving your clients to the best of your extent? So I do think the investment managers are capable of making the financial decisions for the payoff and the payback period and return on costs associated with these decisions.

But I also think that the approach of the investor has shifted from, we can't make money off of this to, if we don't consider the risks here, are we doing ourselves a disservice?

Nancy Lashine:

And are you thinking about risks in terms of, say, the energy components or climate risks, or are you thinking about it in terms of social and governance? What aspect of the risk is really on people's minds?

Jen Stevens:

Everything that you mentioned. So, for example, on the environmental side, if you don't build to a level of accreditation, lead or energy star certification, let's use as an example, will that stunt your property value when you go to sell an asset or will that prevent a tenant from occupying your space? So from an environmental perspective, sure, you can put in operating efficiencies that help you to save NOIs at the end of the day after the payback period expires. So there's a financial benefit to some of this, but there are larger questions at hand that are still unproven that could impact the value of the investment.

And then on the other hand, risks when it relates to not understanding climate exposure in your portfolio. So climate and resiliency, terms used interchangeably at times, are really measuring the climate risk across the portfolio. And the goal is to understand where that risk lies and to mitigate it. So diversify your exposures to geographic locations, to a certain property type to help mitigate that exposure.

On the social and governance side, the risk is related to headline risk, and also I think it's really innate in what we do as an industry, this focus on fiduciary obligation is good governance. And if you are not mindful and transparent about your action, the risk is really to your business and to the investors that may invest across your investment vehicles. So that risk is a little bit different than some of the more measurable risks that you see in the environmental component.

Nancy Lashine:

Right. So E is energy environment. So E is environmental, right? Is that how you would define it as energy, water waste, climate risk? What is GHG emissions? What does that mean?

Jen Stevens:

Greenhouse gas emissions. So it's a function-

Nancy Lashine:

Got it-

Jen Stevens:

Of energy, so greenhouse gas emissions. And the reason why commercial real estate has become the center of this ESG topic of discussions is that commercial real estate at one point in time accounted for 40% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. So really impacting the environment in ways that we hadn't considered before. And so there are actions that can be taken to reduce the energy usage, the water usage, the way waste is diverted within commercial real estate. So it's really about those factors including now fast-forward to the climate inclusion as well.

Nancy Lashine:

There's a big gap between the way U.S. investors are looking at this and, say, European investors are, isn't there?

Jen Stevens:

In the U.S. the topic of ESG remains politically charged. I do think it has improved and there's an expectation that ESG is a point of evaluation when making an investment decision. But in Europe and even Australia, that has been inherent in those business decisions for so long. So there's a general acceptance and actually expectation that ESG is being contemplated when making new investments that really doesn't exist uniformly here in the U.S. quite yet.

Nancy Lashine:

Let's talk a little bit about the diversity aspect. How are you thinking about diversity and governance within manager organizations? How far down into the organization do you look, do you think about service providers, and when you write a policy, what are the key elements of a diversity policy?

Jen Stevens:

So diversity, equity, and inclusion as it's now referred to or DEI, it's become a very prominent part of what we're doing at Alliance. In fact, we've written several DEI policies for investment managers over the last few months, and those policies came at the request of investors and consultants who were now circulating DEI questionnaires.

So it's an interesting time in our world and in our country when these issues bring to light some inequity. And that inequity exists in our industry, the commercial real estate investment industry as well. And there is a concerted effort to improve statistics and inclusion across the industry at large.

I don't think anybody's quite figured it out yet, how you can do this in a consistent and uniform fashion. And so, we hope that there will be some collaboration across the industry for this one topic alone, DEI, and how you measure it effectively, how you put some statistics around it, and how the industry as a whole, not your own individual organization, not just that, but the industry as a whole can improve for the future participants in the industry.

So for the public plans that we served at Townsend, really they expect investment management firms to represent the communities that they serve. And that's just not the case today. So in terms of the policy, the most important parts in my opinion, are really having a policy in place. It does not exist everywhere, and the policy is intended to encourage senior leadership to consider different recruitment efforts, to consider diversity of thought within their organization, to consider how much of that diversity is in a decision-making capacity. So it really looks all the way down in the organization to the analyst level and to the administrative level, all the way up to the key decision makers who are driving some of these policies and programs.

And what I think for a while is we just became complacent. We did what worked to bring on and hire and recruit talent, and a lot of that is done through referral and networking and you bring on a lot of experience that way. But now we're trying to be a little bit more creative in terms of finding ways to improve diversity, especially at the decision-making level.

Nancy Lashine:

And thinking back to your time at Townsend and now at Alliance, are you seeing investors choosing managers or not choosing managers because they don't have an effective DEI policy or they haven't implemented it yet?

Jen Stevens:

Not yet. I think that the policy is one thing, but then the action and demonstration of diversity within the organization is another topic that is addressed by institutional investors.

I had clients when I was at Townsend who requested that level of information from investment managers, and it was presented to the board at every meeting where we made an investment recommendation, and they have been doing that for 10, 15 years. And so it is an important part of decision making. Representation is important to especially the city and state pension plans.

And I haven't seen the policy itself drive decision making, but what we have seen recently are new DEI questionnaires from the consultants and from the investors themselves, investors like New York Common and UC Regents and consultants like Mercer and Townsend really paying attention to this issue because it was forgotten about. And I take ownership for that. At Townsend, I wrote the ESG questionnaire and we really didn't have a large section at the time on DEI, and it just wasn't covered in ESG and it belongs there. And so I think this point of reflection that we're in as a nation has really encouraged everybody to think outside the box as to what we can do to improve this element for our future.

Nancy Lashine:

And one last question on that topic. Have you seen managers or investors for that matter redline any areas because of climate risk at this point?

Jen Stevens:

I have seen that in specific instances. So, for example, at Townsend, I worked for pension fund clients and they had discretionary separate accounts where they were in charge of the decision making, the acquisition activity, the decision activity. And in the last two years or so, we did see pension plans turn away investments because of things like climate risk. I would say it was an outlier. That might've been a decision that was also related to their portfolio composition at the time and how much exposure they had in a certain region. But I have seen it kill deals, and I do think that these considerations are important to know, and also the mindfulness that others have about this topic is also important to know as well.

Nancy Lashine:

Got it. Well, thank you. That was really a fascinating deep dive into ESG. So let's switch gears a little bit.

You talked about how hard it was to leave Townsend and to switch gears, and obviously you've started Alliance Global Advisors. Tell us a little bit about what the model is for the business. Was there a void in the market that you were looking to fill or how did you come up with your business plan?

Jen Stevens:

Sure. So Alliance Global Advisors, we launched on April 1st, 2020, so quite impeccable timing. I joined up with a former colleague of mine, Heather Border, the co-founder of Alliance. And we do think we're a new type of consulting firm, one that serves the investment managers. The investment managers are our clients. We work with investment managers ranging from emerging to established global fundraisers and brand names. We sit at the intersection of the investors and the consultant and then the investment managers in their portfolios.

And we really exist to elevate best practices. We are not focused on capital raising, which is a differentiator compared to others that also help to elevate best practices in the industry.

And then we aim to facilitate things like organizational growth, product development, and providing an independent perspective that we believe the industry needed.

When I was at Townsend, we had a lot of information coming at us, a lot of data, a lot of research and a lot of information, and we were really good about taking that information, synthesizing it, making an informed investment decision that we felt was in the best interest of our clients. What we were not very good at as a whole was really turning around 360 degree feedback to those that provided us the data and the information.

And so our business is intended to do just that, provide a different independent perspective, and to really dig deep into past performance, organizational structure and what the risks facing the organization might be in order to improve them and allow or growth within the company and the fund products as well.

Nancy Lashine:

How much of your business is data driven versus listening to the organization and then providing advice based on your experience?

Jen Stevens:

It's a mix of both. I would say probably 40/60, data and experience. The data really comes in useful when you are analyzing a track record and you're also analyzing performance attribution across different property types or locations.

And that comes in useful as well when you're helping to structure new products in the market, really to dig into the areas of expertise within an organization that's multifaceted and helping them develop programs that would be aligned with their past experience. So there is a big data element that's important.

And then the experience component is just one that comes with the consulting industry when you have a wide breadth of experience that people want to know about in order to better serve their investors. And so that consultation is definitely a large part of what we do.

Nancy Lashine:

So can we maybe make it a little more concrete for our listeners? Give us an example of the kinds of assignments you'd be hired for.

Jen Stevens:

So most of our clients are long retainer clients. So they'll hire us for a period of one to two years, and we will work with them on a scope of services that's really tailored to their individual needs that covers a few key areas. Those key areas might be providing professional development through education on certain topics. So we just talked about ESG. That is one topic that is dominating our conversations today as investment managers are looking to develop ESG policies and develop a method for integrating ESG across the decision-making framework of their organizations from acquisitions through to reporting out to investors. And so a lot of the work we're doing today is related to education on certain subjects.

We host masterclasses for our clients on these subjects. We've developed about 10 to date, and they're on topics such as reporting requirements and why they're important to the reader. They're on the topic of institutional investment history, the evolution of this industry and how it evolved to where it fits today. And that one is more tailored toward an emerging manager launching onto the institutional stage. So these are specific examples of the education we provide.

And then we're working through product development initiatives as well. So launching new products that meet investor appetite and investor needs, analyzing track record. Let's say the manager hasn't been presenting the track record in the same light that the consultant views it or the investor views it and they're just not understanding that element. So we do work on marketing materials to better structure that discussion in a way that leads to growth for their investment platforms.

And really helping them understand their peer set and their competitors in the market and what they may have done differently over the years.

Nancy Lashine:

So I'm listening to what you're doing and I'm thinking, "Gosh, maybe COVID was a silver lining in some respects." Because I'm assuming you can do all of this virtually.

Jen Stevens:

We can. We have been. We were originally set up to be virtual ourselves and work remotely. So it's just been a blessing that the world is accustomed to this today. I don't think it replaces human interaction in the same way that being in person in the office and sitting with you face to face would do. But I do think most of this can be done virtually what we're doing.

And then as it comes to the physical real estate itself, what we're hearing from investors is nothing really replaces the need to go out and kick the tires on an office building if you're looking to acquire it. So there is that element that must return when COVID subside.

Nancy Lashine:

Biggest surprises in starting your own business? Did not anticipate?

Jen Stevens:

I didn't anticipate how fulfilling it would be to take a vision and see it actually come to light. I mean, that might sound a little bit farfetched, but what I mean by that is I think everybody has a way that they would run a business if they were in charge. And when you have the ability to run a business that way because you are in charge, it is totally different. I think it just changes your mindset.

The other thing I didn't anticipate was, I didn't anticipate the level of support that we've had from the investment community, the investors that we formally serve, the consultants that we worked with and the investment managers who we really feel are rooting for us too. So there's that element.

And then there are all these challenges to just coordinating payroll and improving technology security and things like that that I just had no experience with because it was all so well taken care of for me in a prior organization. So I just didn't really have any indication that that would be needed.

But were institutional in nature. We've come up to speed pretty quickly. We run a very safe and secure business. And I just think the administration of that and getting that all onboarded has been a little bit more challenging than I expected.

Nancy Lashine:

Oh, I can totally empathize with that. I remember when I started my first business, and of course technology wasn't where it is today, but I couldn't believe how much time I had to spend on technology and just getting things to run well.

And I will say that, Jen, you have a huge fan club, all sorts of people in the corners who are rooting for you and Heather. So you've obviously built up-

Jen Stevens:

Thank you-

Nancy Lashine:

Enormous goodwill over the years. You're two women starting your own business in a male dominated real estate finance business. Did you have any mentors or role models?

Jen Stevens:

Of course. I mean, there are so many women that really paved the way for myself and for Heather, those personally that I've been impacted by just seeing their success. Others that I've worked with at Townsend in the past, Eileen Byrne and Mike Lynn McGee and Linda Asante and the likes of Deb Harmon, just women who really took initiative, paved the path for other women to succeed in the industry and really made it their wholehearted effort to see those succeed. I really value the mentorship that I've received myself from these women.

And I look up to some of the former real estate staffers at New York Common, Marjorie Sang and Gloria Gil at UC Regents is on our advisory board currently. And I really think that they struggled in a way that I did not struggle because I had them in front of me. So in our industry, the women who have launched new businesses such as yourself and others that were in a similar position to me that went on and did very great things.

And then outside the industry, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sarah Blakely, just fun entrepreneurial women.

Nancy Lashine:

Absolutely. There are plenty of role models out there.

Can you share with us what your vision is for Alliance in, say, a few years time?

Jen Stevens:

Sure. We are very deliberate about growth. And what I mean by that is that currently we're serving clients that we want to serve that have what we believe to be high potential of success.

And we are cognizant of the need to keep our managers diversified as well, diversified by product type that they offer, by strategy, by property type, by geographic region.

I do see expansion possibilities in Europe and Asia for growing a global client base. We do have a European client today and several that invest across the world as well.

And I also see room for improvement and growth in other verticals such as proptech, a space that I'm particularly interested in, improving the technology in our sector and for ourselves as well.

And then we, as I mentioned earlier, we service both emerging managers and established managers today. And I do think our services are very well suited for somebody seeking to launch onto the institutional platform. So that emerging manager space is one that we feel committed to. We want to serve them, and I could see some growth in our platform that way. And as we grow, we'll make sure to bring on resources ahead of that growth and see where we can take this.

Nancy Lashine:

Okay. Well, I'm going to end with just the last wrap up personal question. Give us some sense, Jen, what are your favorite hobbies outside of work? Favorite hobby?

Jen Stevens:

Favorite hobby is skiing. I love to ski. I don't ski black diamonds. I'm getting older, so I'm afraid to fall. But I like to ski with my niece and my nephews and my husband and probably my favorite pastime.

My husband's a sailor. I love to be out on the water as well. He's a former boat captain. He's a captain without a boat right now, so I like to be out on the water.

Take me to the mountains, take me to the beach, and you'll find me enjoying my favorite hobbies there.

Nancy Lashine:

Well, it sounds like from the middle of Ohio, you guys are going to be doing a fair amount of traveling, so...

Jen Stevens:

I hope so.

Nancy Lashine:

Thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time, your thoughts.

Huge congratulations on starting the business and wishing you every success.

Jen Stevens:

Thank you so much.

Nancy Lashine:

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Real Estate Capital. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask.

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